Aw heck, I keep forgetting to allow uploads! X.X Apologies `TeeEffDee`! Looks fabulous as is though! 💚

`Electra` Hiiii, well I blame `Peyo` , I keep trying to get him to enable uploads by default but you know, the spirit of the site demands maximum difficulty or errors or something so whatcha gonna do?

`TeeEffDee` but I gave you powers to upload without them enabled, remember? 😟 (or did that broke? 🤔)

`Peyo` It works, but if someone has uploads turned off, I don't know whether or not they want me to upload. Electra, for example, has extolled to me the virtues of site limitations (palette and time limits as existed on DC) so if she has earlier put up a strip with upload enabled, but then this one doesn't have it enabled, and gets passed to me, which it did, my assumption is she doesn't want it uploaded to. So I'm not going to presume. It would be like if I went and uploaded a pic to Sam's 30 second character portrait game. I COULD... But it wouldn't be very polite. Funny, yes, but not polite.

`TeeEffDee` but then if I make uploads the default wouldn't that have the same problem? like then I'm trying to trick people who wouldn't want them enabled and then they would need to check every time? 😟 somehow I feel there is no 'winning' for me here 🤔

Well they could turn them off. Like what you could do is have an option to not have them on, because fewer people are going to want them turned off. Okay think of it like this... There's only one situation someone is going to want uploads turned off. That is if they say "I want contributors to my strip, but I do not want them free to create the artwork outside of the java app. I only want java app created art to be in this strip. That means if someone is willing to draw a picture for my strip in an art program or make it on paper and photograph it or scan it, no, I don't want any of that. I only want java app art." Now surely, that will happen sometimes. But it will be rare compared to people who say... "I just want a contribution. I'm fine with however it's made." Those are the people who benefit from having uploads turned on by default. Because they don't sent a message of "Only make art for my strip using the java app." by accidentally forgetting to turn on the upload option. It's just heading off a common error people make. And the people who insist on having people use the java app are not going to forget to switch uploads off because they're trying to make a point to start with. That point being "I am primarily interested in you using the java app, not in your art contribution."

Uploads were allowed by default on PanelJam, as long as you were a premium member. Established is probably PChutney's equivalent of that. Being able to turn uploads off for special challenges or whatever seems fine, but I'm not sure why it should be the stock configuration.

I had no idea PJ had uploads 😮 ( I thought it was with hack only 🤔) btw were there actually an ocassion where you ( `TeeEffDee` ) uploaded and someone got mad about it? 🤔

`Peyo` Uploads on PanelJam was what caused me to try and give money to JamDaddy to try and buy premium and I kept running into problems with their credit card processing (Apparently the server handling it went down.) It was horrible frustrating. About uploading and having people get mad, on here, no, because I wouldn't ever upload unless explicitly invited (By the game being set to Uploads on) or when finishing off old games that had been left to rot. You and Pax went on quite a bit about the "spirit of the site" which I assume is a Norman Greenbaum song which only you two are privy to so I've always just assumed whatever the spirit of the site is, I don't know about it, so just stick to uploading when it's invited. I also used to participate heavily in oekaki culture which had a sort of divided community with a few people wanting work to be created using only the on-site art tools but the majority not minding uploads. I've always taken it as some sort of territoriality. A "one of us" sort of thing.

`TeeEffDee` I had no idea that PJ had (legal) uploads and I thought that by having them indeed the spirit of PJ would be hurt 🤔 anyway it's no hill I want to die on .. but the thing is that from my perspective I thought I already solved it by just giving people who always want to upload the privilege to do so .. (thinking this would make everyone happy) so my suggestion for now is: don't worry about it and upload away and if someone gets mad: you both blame me 👍

The upload feature is definitely useful for saving your work and continuing it at a later time. There's totally positives and a valid argument for having it in. I've used it for a bunch of things because it's available. I don't want to come off as a total hypocrite here. Lol. I still feel like it could potentially be abused where someone might upload another artist's work as their own (or just uploading real porn) but from what I've seen, some users on here seem to be pretty quick to spot it out and this site is still a small enough community to where I doubt it will be a big issue at all. For now, at least. I'm only an opponent to it because of the potential abuse and the fact that I mainly came from Doodle or Die which had a really limited set of colour palettes and tools to work with (though there were some unofficial browser plugins that could expand on that). Paneljam (and Chutney) were and are the closest to capturing that kind of vibe and community for me. It was awesome to see what some artists could create out of the limitations presented and it really inspired and drove me to want to become a better artist in process. Gave up drawing in general for a few years but when I did get back into it and found Paneljam, I was so surprised to see a lot of familiar artists I recognized from DoD going back more than 10 years now. So hopefully it's a sign that it's not just me that wants that same level of limitation. (Probably is just me) xD. It's all good though, this site is great. I ain't mad over the upload feature. I still wish it wasn't available but the positives 100% outweigh the negatives.

Not alone, `PȂX` , I love the limitations too, all about working with restraints 😁👌 But this site is a far cry from being limited, you spoil us `Peyo` with plenty of tools and more importantly, your prompt updates and consideration of all requests, truly a mad man who cares for us all 🫡 I’m fine with people uploading as well, some great artists on here upload and if it means we see more of their art, then it’s a good feature to have, maybe just for them though. Like a Pro Tier, one level above established.

`PȂX` indeed and I hope we can reach some compromise on this (even though I thought we already did) in a way making a site is more about social problems than technical problems 🤔 `Painovoima` you know the original concept was just to have black and white drawings (kind of like the miiverse on the wii u) mostly because I figured 1 bit graphics could be hosted anywhere cheaply (and of course this way it could live along PJ without threatening it's subscription bucks by being a different thing) sometimes I feel I should went with that instead 🤔

I’d probably still enjoy the site if it was ChutneyNoir (maybe a sister site 😅), but I’m also glad you invited a world of colour to the site, ha ha. It’s nice to see how rapidly it’s advanced from that idea over time. And that makes sense, wonder what you’d call PanelChutney’s currency; Chut Change, Peyo Pesos, The Peyonian Pound, Chutney Cash? 😆

`Peyo` I'm not going do that! The reason I don't upload to people's strips without them having upload enabled, is because I respect people's limits and standards, and don't want to risk doing something to their strip they don't want done. It's not a fear of people getting mad at me, it's the wish not to intrude on their personal vision. So I'm going to do it the way I do it now. If somebody doesn't have upload enabled, I'm not going to use a special ability to have my way with their stuff.

`TeeEffDee` I thought of a solution, let me know what you think: there might be a day where I would need help with the hosting costs (still far away but let's plan long term) and I figured for that we could add the privilege of uploading anytime for people who donate now becasue of this: how about adding an extra setting that disables all uploads? (even for the people who have this anytime upload privilege) so if someone absolutely has a vision and not just doesn't care about it can turn off all uploads

`Peyo` Uploading as a paid donation based feature: Sure, great idea! But when you say "anytime" are you saying even if someone doesn't want uploads to their strip? I'm not comfortable with the idea of people being unable to stop others from uploading to their strips because I don't see the benefit outside some kind of power trip. In fact with a lot of these issues I feel like there's a lot going on beneath the surface I just don't perceive. In fact if I had one wish for you or other site creators it would be simple: Simply write out what it is you want to achieve with your site, specifically, and put it out there for others to clearly read and understand. But MEAN it. Don't fluff it or finesse it, mean it, and stand behind it with actions. All this vague fan-dancing about finding equitable solutions is a game unto itself and it's a game people like me have no interest in playing. I have a simple desire: I want to participate in art with other artists of my choosing, in an environment as free from inconvenience, as free from sub-culture boot licking and as free from hoop-jumping as possible. The beauty of a free environment is if others do want to place limits on their experience, they can, but they simply can't drag others into their experience. So I get very put out with the whole veneer of "I'm just trying to run a simple site for fun" kind of approach people have, no you're not. You have a complex and specific idea of what you want, and you should own up to it and state it, and stop pretending its simple. If it was simple, everything would be geared toward simplicity, not obscurity and mystery. All that said, any feature you want to have for people that is determined by a paywall or donation is fine and goes toward running a site the way you want it run and has my unabashed free market approval, for the zero sum that's worth. (more next post)

`Peyo` But what I was saying on this issue is, for the time, having uploads stuck in this bizarre limbo of... 1. Being off by default with no option to have them on by default. 2. Being hidden from new users behind a button. 3. Being hidden from new users behind a button UNRELATED to uploading anything. Is only going to result in one thing which is people making games where they'd like to have uploads but they forgot to turn them on, so they didn't get uploads. That's my only point, going off the very case of this strip which saw someone forgetting to turn on uploads, resulting in someone doing drawings in the java app when they didn't want to. Any solution proposed for this after the fact is, by definition, the hoop jumping I was talking about, and was engineered by the bizarre setup. That's why I say it would be best if people just owned up to what they were REALLY going for with a site instead of using some overly simplistic representation of it, which results in people later on shaking their heads and wandering away. Such as happened with both Drawception and PanelJam. And I am sure other sites as well just I don't have the patience to get around much. Don't be another sequel: Express yourself.

`TeeEffDee` I know i'm a pushover of sorts and I know i'm digging myself deeper here but I just want to reach a compromise - that is all is there to it 😔 there is no conspiracy here - but then of course that is exactly what we would tell if you there was one 🤔

`Peyo` There's no need for a compromise. Just make the statement "This site is for control-freak weirdos who fear unlimited expression to have a closed environment they can throw their weight around in by forcing people to use a java app for art so they can spend their time mastering the app to feel good about themselves, you know, like the oekaki community" and you're golden! People like me can take one look at it and go "Oh screw that" and so much frustration is avoided. It's really easy! I'm not trying to push you over, I'm saying state your standards and stick with them, put them out there, save everyone some time.

after everything I have done and all the features I added I'm just a 'control-freak weirdo' 😕 you know for someone who worry a lot about how other people feel about uploads on their strips .. you don't seem to care much about my feelings 🤔

`Peyo` That's a bit reductive. But yeah I do think the whole thing is weird, that's why I'd like a straight up statement of just what the goal of the site is, the so-called "Spirit of the site." But also, keep in mind this whole thing stems from a comment I made to someone who was saying they had meant to turn on uploads and hadn't, which resulted in me having the choice to either not contribute or use the app. If the topic is going to hurt your feelings, let's by all means drop it. It's not even a necessary discussion. It's just something that happened because the way things are set up that's what's going to happen. Repeatedly. Because the function's been obfuscated. So be it!

Also, seriously: "If you want to upload, disregard their feelings, and blame it on me." "I can't believe on the topic of uploading you disregarded my feelings and blamed it on me." You should delete this entire embarrassing comment thread starting with and including my reply to Electra. It deteriorates the state of humanity by existing. The world is poorer for it. A discussion about a glass of spilled milk would have more merit in the long term.

I'm sorry but I think you just put me into perspective we won't have uploads by default because the 'control freak' said so if you want me to put my foot down so badly then so be it

what a headache guys, this is such a non issue? `TeeEffDee` it wont kill you to draw on the site or ask for the strip creator to enable uploads for you. and its not a cute look either trying to bully someone into making the changes YOU want by hiding behind "artistic freedom" we ALREADY have so much freedom! be better :/

It was my fault to begin with ya’ll. I accidentally forgot to turn it on. If I had it my way, I would have my user settings set to always allow Uploads, but I get why some wouldn’t want that on their panels. Again, sorry for the trouble everybody! X~X

`Electra` don't apologize, you didn't start this

`TeeEffDee` , fucking hell, my friend, you killed it 😫 I’m a fan of both Peyo and your artwork. You both having a discussion about a feature is nothing new, many features have been implemented due to Peyo’s openness to hear us all out, no matter how often he gets flooded by requests. His usual response; he draws light hearted comics poking fun at the reality of running this site! Being on a site where the owner even talks to us is awesome. I highly respect Peyo for that, I don’t believe a sub-culture of boot licking exists here because of the fact many of us respect him; he’s earned it. But damn, reading this conversation especially Comments 19 - 23, there might be some sense in your comments but I missed it because it’s clouded by what sounds like you having some personal issues with the site and decided to take it out on our friend Peyo. Reaching a compromise would have been the most sane thing to do as you’ve both done before in the past, and you’ve always communicated well together, this was just hard to read. Honestly, heartbreaking to read the man try and keep his composure and reason with you while you pretty much shutdown most of his suggestions and encouraged him to make a statement about being a “control freak weirdo” to satisfy your opinion of him and the site. He even used emojis to soften his more direct comments, a common practice among nice folks who don’t want their comment’s tone be mistaken for anger. Like Peyo, I too am an excessively nice guy, (probably too much for my own good, ha ha) and I always aim to be polite, so regardless of what becomes of me saying this, please know that I still love your artwork and your personality (outside of what you displayed here), but damn, you came off like a absolute bitch here. Shame it was on this funny comic strip, you could have emailed the man.